Australian Female#8 (Hariette) & Asian Male#1 (Yoshi) [Tape#9, Video#4]

August 12th, 2017

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Hariette:
Yoshi: OK?
OK talking about plag plagiarism?
What constitute acts of plagiarism
Hariette: well I I I guess we just want to make sure that um that people um know what plagiarism is so that
Yoshi: euh
Hariette: whe- when they produce work for the university they’re not going to um
Yoshi: just copy off someone else
Hariette: |- yeah
Yoshi: or something like that
Hariette: cause I I think some people don’t really know what it is
Yoshi: actually I’m not too sure about what it is
Hariette: |- [laugh]
Yoshi: from what I know plagiarism is sort of like actually taking chunks of texts out of someone else’s
Hariette: |- yeah
Yoshi: or something like that
Hariette: yeah I think I think that’s probably the main the main thing
Yoshi: mhm
Hariette: because the point is if you if you just take it out just copy it or
Yoshi: yeah
Hariette: just take it from a from another book or um something like that
and then you don’t say that you’ve that you’ve done it [laugh]
Yoshi: yeah
Hariette: you’re not s- you you you’re sort of passing it off as if it’s your own work
Yoshi: yeah that’s right
Hariette: and so the the person who wrote that they’re not getting any credit for it
Yoshi: eh
Hariette: you’re just cheating
I guess it’s cheating
Yoshi: it’s sort of cheating
yeah
Hariette: |- yeah
well it is really
Yoshi: but if I mean if you were to sort of like take some text and look at it and write it in a different way
Hariette: mmmm
Yoshi: that does that constitute plagiarism as well?
or
Hariette: yeah I know
this is this is I guess this is the hard thing to try and decide what what it actually all the instances that that constitute plagiarism
Yoshi: yep
Hariette: so
I think it does if you don’t if you don’t cite it
you have to
you have to say
Yoshi: |- so you have to sort of like yeah
put it in brackets as whose and whose work and
Hariette: yeah
Yoshi: put in references yeah
Hariette: |- and the year or whatev whatever way you’re referencing
because I think e- even if like if you make like a precis you jus just take it but it’s not really your idea
Yoshi: yeah it’s someone else’s idea
Hariette: yeah so if it’s someone else’s research or um someone else that something that they’ve some idea they’ve taken from from research or something like that then you’re just just you’re just write even though you rewrite it
Yoshi: mm
Hariette: you’re still using their ideas
Yoshi: yep
Hariette: so that’s plagiarism too
Yoshi: but it’s kind of hard isn’t it
I mean
certain times when we actually write about something you actually have to go into the references and text before you can actually write about something
Hariette: yeah! [laugh]
Yoshi: so it’s I think it’s a really fuzzy line between plagiarism and creativity right
I mean it’s like
Hariette: mm
yeah it it’s hard too like I I I’m not too sure about that
but but it the I the other thing that’s really difficult is that sometimes would you have the same idea
Yoshi: yeah
Hariette: and you say ‘it’s my idea’ [laugh]
Yoshi: ‘it’s my idea
I thought about it
but that guy thought about it first’
Hariette: yeah so what do you do then
do you sort of write it
Yoshi: |- is it plagiarism?
or
Hariette: yeah
oh I I think I think that you just have to cite it anyway because it’s not exac-
it is an original thought I guess
Yoshi: and the other thing is supposedly you you discover something and you write about it
Hariette: mm
Yoshi: in in a way you think it it’s like that
for all you for all you know the there maybe another person half way around the world also thinking like you and
Hariette: |-mm
Yoshi: actually coming out with the same idea
Hariette: oh it doesn’t matter
Yoshi: [laugh]
Hariette: [laugh]
Yoshi: so you see which comes out who comes out first
Hariette: yeah
I think I think that’s the way it I think that’s the way it works
Yoshi: yeah
Hariette: um I think you know you can’t sort of you can’t predict these sort of things
but I think in terms of like if you’re looking at um for for th- for this university um s- many students do get a-are penalised
Yoshi: yeah
Hariette: for for plagiarism
and um sometimes really severe penalties
you know um eve-even to being I don’t think they actually get kicked out of the university
I supposed it has to be really severe
but certainly being um being given a fail for the course
I’ve seen that happen
someone’s just copied bits
Yoshi: yeah
Hariette: text
maybe they haven’t known how to do it
you know a first year undergraduate or something a-and you just
Yoshi: I have friends who actually take the text book
use the scanner
scan the stuff in
Hariette: yeah
Yoshi: and just modify it
Hariette: oh
Yoshi: so that now that is real plagiarism
Hariette: that is plagiarism
Yoshi: yeah
Hariette: and they get away with that?
Yoshi: ah I don’t know if they got away with it or not
but probably
Hariette: [laugh]
Yoshi: but I guess if if you were to take a w- I mean if you’re going to take someone’s ideas and stuff and write it in your own words
Hariette: yeah
Yoshi: and and sort of like maybe cite references
I guess they should be OK right
they shoul- they shouldn’t be plagiarism
Hariette: no I think I think the important thing is that you’re actually acknowledging that someone else has done this
Yoshi: |- that someone else did it
yeah
Hariette: you know I think y- in terms of what you write depending on what you’re writing I suppose like PhD or something
Yoshi: yeah
Hariette: depends on what you’re writing for the for the university then what you actually write is the original piece of work
but the ideas don’t have to be as
you’re sort of getting them
Yoshi: yeah
Hariette: and you acknowledge that
and then the actual way you put it together to come up with some conclusion
it’s your work
Yoshi: |- yep
yep
Hariette: you know that’s what I guess what they’re really the- they’re really just waiting to see if you can find the information
Yoshi: mm
Hariette: and um interpret that information
Yoshi: mhm
Hariette: evaluate it and so on
so I think maybe maybe for some for some people think that that plagiarism’s OK
Yoshi: yeah
Hariette: and um and I don’t know it maybe it maybe in some cultures it it’s regarded as perfectly alright not to not to have to cite
Yoshi: [laugh]
Hariette: I don’t know
in Indonesia I think it’s quite acceptable
Yoshi: in this
I’m not too sure about that [laugh]
Hariette: I’m not too sure either
but I have heard
I had heard that it’s that it’s you don’t really have to mm if i y- you know people mention the bibliograrphy but they don’t actually have to cite it in the text
Yoshi: oh Ok
Hariette: that you know you just sort of write and it’s perfectly OK to just take chunks out of out of things
so I think maybe some some students um who’ve come from other countries might find it difficult
different
Yoshi: |-yeah
Hariette: a different idea of wha- what’s regarded
Yoshi: |- yeah
Hariette: you know what’s
Yoshi: but I guess
I wonder if there’s a difference between different departments
you know I mean just like citing of references and stuff
Hariette: |-oh really?
oh I I think so
but I think in term plagiarism itself I think there I think there’s a probably unified
Yoshi: unified
Hariette: stand on that
I think people
oh most lecturers know
Yoshi: mm
Hariette: unless you’ve got something
or maybe you’ve got something off the internet or something like that
Yoshi: |- yeah probably
Hariette: they might not know
[both laugh]
Yoshi: things like that now it’s kind of hard to to control plagiarism
I mean unless
Hariette: like it is
um at the p- I guess the problem is that if we if we if we were if we were if we were to write something like for for students so that they are um aware of that what plagiarism is
that it is it is a a serious thing um that they could be if if if they’re if they’re found to do this then that they could b they could be um given a fail
Yoshi: [clear throat]
Hariette: may even be thrown out of the university
Yoshi: yeah
Hariette: um
Yoshi: I guess it depends again on the the student itself
Hariette: |-like it
Yoshi: himself or herself
because some of them may not actually have the English ability to write
Hariette: |-mm I
Yoshi: fluently
Hariette: mm
Yoshi: so that might constitute because I ha I have seen cases in my
Hariette: mmm
Yoshi: my time because some of my friends their English is not as good as
Hariette: mm
Yoshi: you know not up to par
so they can do sort of like take bits and pieces out of text
to make their write up look good you see
Hariette: yeah
Yoshi: so
Hariette: oh yeah I I understand that and I think think that’s the problem is is that um maybe students need to be aware of the fact that they need to they need to cite
Yoshi: yeah
Hariette: the information as ha as ha as having come from somewhere
because um that’s where the problems that’s you know that’s where the they’re going to get themselves into trouble because they want to make it look
Yoshi: |- yeah
yep
Hariette: look good
Yoshi: ????
Hariette: |- have nice writing style or something
Yoshi: |-yeah
Hariette: and I can
it’s difficult isn’t it
it’s I I think to um m many Australian students or other students who’ve just come straight from high school they start in high school just copying um bits out text books to do have to do a history assignment
and so they copy this out and find another book ooh that’s good I think paragraph two
Yoshi: |- yeah
Hariette: and then when they come to university
Yoshi: I think they’re just not trained to write
Hariette: yeah
Yoshi: that way you see
Hariette: I think that’s
Yoshi: |- that’s the whole problem
yeah
Hariette: yeah that’s the problem
and I think also the idea too that they they want to get good marks and so they think if well if I just do this looks nice I like that
Yoshi: [laugh] oh yes yes
Hariette: I couldn’t have written it so well
I’ll take that piece
no one will ever know
of course maybe that lecturer has been teaching this subject for years
Yoshi: |- yes he might have seen
Hariette: and he ????
Yoshi: |- and this looks familar work
[both laugh]
???
Hariette: that’s right yeah
it does happen
I I’ve seen happen from history but oo
I’d find the book
‘oh yeah
there it is’
Yoshi: but I guess writing comes with practice you know
sort of like
Hariette: |- true true
Yoshi: I mean when you first come into a university um setting lecturers um expect some kind of some way of writing
ah you know?
Hariette: mm
Yoshi: the way the way you write it
Hariette: mm
Yoshi: and some students actually have to take the time to actually adapt to the situation
adapt to the conditions before they can actually write it
Hariette: mm
Yoshi: no?
express themself
Hariette: ??
Yoshi: so so I guess time also plays a factor in you know this kind of thing
Hariette: well yeah
Yoshi: creative writing
Hariette: since it’s as you say it- it’s difficult to decide what is and what isn’t plagiarism
so I mean we can say
I mean we can sympathise with students
Yoshi: |- ???
Hariette: [both laugh]
Yoshi: yeah
Hariette: who take stuff because they run out of time
because they don’t have the English
or whatever
but I mean really it is it is just stealing someone else’s ideas
someone else’s
Yoshi: yeah
Hariette: work
well what el s- what else there must be other things we haven’t thought of though
I mean
it’s one thing just to copy stuff out of a book
what else would be plagiarism do you think?
I mean that’s the most common one
Yoshi: |- m I’m thinking
I guess
can it be like taking data from other one other people and modifying it to your own
things like that could also be plagiarism right
Hariette: yeah
Yoshi: |-ooohh
Hariette: it’s ag gain there’s a fine line between
Yoshi: yeah
Hariette: because we ??? about modifying you think ‘ooh is that really plagiarism’
Yoshi: |- and graphs and things like that
ya that’s right
Hariette: yeah an an and maybe um um yeah um but um there’s other things
someone was saying um things if you’re taking things off the internet
or if you’re taking things from television um broadcasts or film or something I mean that constitutes plagiarism as well
Yoshi: you mean like actually taking people’s um quotes and
Hariette: mm but not but not saying that I that um so-and-so on this program said this
you know
Yoshi: yeah
Hariette: or taking things
I think I think I think the big worry for a lot of people being is the internet
people taking stuff from websites
Yoshi: you mean pictures and and
Hariette: not just pictures
but like ac actual written pieces
and then not acknowledging it
Yoshi: oh that’s the problem with internet
because internet is sort of like a broad thing and
Hariette: mm
Yoshi: there there are no laws governing internet
Hariette: yet [laugh]
Yoshi: and controlling
so thing’s like that is kind of hard
Hariette: mm but I I think that’s that’s a problem that people are are now faced with
and um that universities are trying to u- not just universities but various institutions are trying to come up with um ways of of of checking this you know
so if you take something off the net and you
who’s going to know
Yoshi: |- but people
Hariette: you see but this is a good essay wah ha
Yoshi: but people can actually sue you you know
Hariette: if they yeah
Yoshi: |- they can
Hariette: yeah well that’s the i- that’s that’s whole thing about plagiarism
because they own that
?????
Yoshi: |- they own that phrase do they
Hariette: |- th th they own that idea
yeah
so
Yoshi: |- so I guess um
then again on internet it depends on the internet
the individual is sort of like a free free thinker or something like that
Hariette: mm
Yoshi: he might just allow the person to
you know ‘go ahead, use my idea’
I don’t see anything wrong with that
Hariette: |- mm
Yoshi: but some people like might might get offended by people actually taking their stuff out
Hariette: |- mm
Yoshi: and and claiming it as their own you see
so then again depends on the individuals I think
Hariette: mm
Yoshi: for internet
but I think it’s very hard to govern internet
I mean if you were to impose laws and stuff like that there’d be a whole lot of
it’s sort of like slow down the information super highway or something
Hariette: |- yeah
I don’t know
it’s it’s again it’s b like it’s like it’s a sort of area that’s really hard to to think about wha- what we should do I mean
in terms like this university if people are p- people are people are are pla plagiarising is that a verb plagiarise
if people are plagiarising
Yoshi: [short laugh]
Hariette: work from other sources
and then passing it off as their own
and then getting certain marks
and then getting a degree
but it’s not really their own work
I know that’s a that’s a very severe example
well that’s whe- that’s what the same as the internet where they’re getting information from either from from book sources or the internet or whatever
they’re
the whole point about it is it’s they’re not actually getting the grades based on their work
Yoshi: yeah
I get what you mean
but I guess um then again it’s a fine line
I mean if you’d had just do your degree
chances are you’ll be sort of regurtitating someone else’s work or something or doing labs so forth
Hariette: |- highly likely
Yoshi: for for for for my science course it’s actually we’re actually doing things that other people have done
Hariette: mm
Yoshi: sort of repeating it
learning how to do it
Hariette: that that’s the thing
learning how to do it
Yoshi: |- yeah
but when you actually go into a settings a higher you know level of education like Honours or something like that
that’s where the creativity comes in
Hariette: mm
Yoshi: |- that’s where you know you actually do something which no one has done it before
try it out and if it works you write about it
and cite references like
Hariette: mm
Yoshi: this person did this before but I modified it
so inadvertently it’s
Hariette: |- [laugh]
Yoshi: it’s not really your idea
but then again it’s modified???
Hariette: yeah
but it is
Yoshi: |- yeah
Hariette: it’s I guess it’s your interpretation
you’ve reworked someone else’s
Yoshi: correct
Hariette: someone else’s experiment
Yoshi: yeah
Hariette: and either foundthat they cheated
[both laugh]
or yours or yours worked and theirs didn’t
Yoshi: yeah
Hariette: or something like that
Yoshi: something like that
yeah
Hariette: |- yeah
yeah I I yeah I don’t know sort of but anyway we’re supposed to come up with a set of guidelines
Yoshi: guidelines OK let’s see
Hariette: to give information about plagiarism
so we sort we still haven’t really decided what we think it is
mmmm
well
Yoshi: we could inform students of what plagiarism is
Hariette: yeah
Yoshi: and
Hariette: what it is
Yoshi: so like draw some draw up some rules as to when when you write something you have to cite references
Hariette: yeah
Yoshi: you know if you take this phrase from somewhere or this idea from somewhere you have to put it in sort of like give your reference and actually put numbers on it
Hariette: mm
Yoshi: to tell you where it came from
Hariette: yeah
Yoshi: which paper
so people when they read your article or something they can actually go back
Hariette: mm
Yoshi: refer back to this articles and ‘oh ya this guy wrote it and he’s he’s trying to come up with something creative’
Hariette: mm
Yoshi: students trying to sort of like criticise or
Hariette: mm
Yoshi: you know
Hariette: I think sometimes I think I thi- and I think I think that’s right
and I think also we need to explain wh- why
why plagiarism’s so um such a bad thing
and um what was I going to say oh yeah that
Yoshi: [laugh]
Hariette: I had a thought
I had a thought and then when I started talking it sort of went and hid again
um
and I won’t come back anyway
[both laugh]
um yeah so I think we need to define what plagiarism is a- and why it’s important
oh yeah that’s right
for um part of the university it pa- part of your learning is um this this this finding of information and discussing information
Yoshi: yeah
Hariette: I mean that’s part of it
that’s that’s all part of the learning process so
and I think you need to do be able to do that
and to say that ‘I can use research findings
and I can find information
and I can use other people’s research to back up what I my idea is’
Yoshi: yep
Hariette: you know
because sometimes someone else’s you you come up with the same idea
anything that fi- you know 13 hundred other people
Yoshi: |- [laugh]
Hariette: every oh well it’s such a ??
but you can maybe just pick one or two important ones and
Yoshi: yeah
Hariette: mm
or say ‘oh well he thinks so too’
Yoshi: because things like um you know things like literature reviews and things like that
Hariette: |- mm
Yoshi: and just things that actually looking at other people’s work and sort of like commenting on it
sort of
Hariette: |- yeah
Yoshi: if you were to write in a way which you do not cite you probably plag plagiarising
Hariette: yeah
Yoshi: something like that
Hariette: plagiarise
Yoshi: [both laugh]
I don’t know if that’s the correct word or not
Hariette: I don’t ???
yeah I I think so
alright so we’d have to oh um first we’ll think about what it is
Yoshi: yep
Hariette: and umm why it’s bad
because many people probably don’t have a problem with it
in a moral sense
I think
Yoshi: they don’t see anything wrong with it
it’s not exactly like cheating in an examination or something
it’s more like
Hariette: |-mm
it’s close though isn’t it
Yoshi: it’s it’s close but it’s ah I don’t know
Hariette: yeah it’s hard
it’s one of those sort of it’s it’s kind of close to cheating cause you’re really it’s really not your idea but on the other hand
maybe you’ve got more chance of getting away with it
Yoshi: yeah probably
so then again it depends the person might might sort of like cause classmates its well just
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